Trinity and Evolution

December 14, 2007

Monsieurturtle comes in  from the cold:

“Well, we are. God is one being; that is, The Being, the Existing One, the One that Is (all these being various possible translations of the Greek rendering of “I AM”). God is one God, as is proclaimed throughout scripture, but the distinction lies in the fact that He is revealed to us in three persons, or to use a more accurate term (given that English attaches multiple meanings to that term) would be “prosopa”, or “faces/masks/elements”.”

Indeed, when the words behind the words are examined the point becomes even clearer. God is revealed to us through many faces (wrestling with Jeremiah) and masks (the talking donkey), and elements (the burning bush). Yet, we have created no more “persons” in which to express God.

“No, I don’t believe any Trinitarian theologian would believe that God has revealed Himself fully. Indeed, we can only see what has been revealed, but again, what was revealed was done so by God’s own determination, and therefore what we do know of Him must indeed be held precious.”

The problem is that at the basic premise of Trinitarianism is that we have received the full revelation of God, but by your own admission we understand that God has revealed only what he has chosen to reveal. Therefore, any fixed and unchangeable formulation of how God exists is incorrect and hence Trinitarianism is incorrect.

While I consider your troubles with Trinitarian theology valid and worthy of discussion, I find the above statement to be an indicator that you may be doubting a doctrine based on a genuine ounce of doubt and about a pound of misinformation into the matter. That is to say, your consternation with the doctrine is understandable and expected, but the concepts to which you reach for support are based on a non-existent foundation.

I disagree, as the history of the church and the ideas which shaped it are very well documented. Many of the “greatest” men of early church were products of conversion and not born into it (Origen, Justin Martyr, and Turtullian come to mind.) It is quite easy to demonstrate through early church writings how the idea of Trinity was formed over several centuries.

When Man is short on knowledge, the most consistent theories are the simplest. Trinitarianism fails because it relies on an unprovable “mystery”. Trinitarianism relies on a “mystery” so that it can overcome the contradictory gaps. It is the same kind of “mystery” or “missing link” which evolutionists trot out when faced with problems in their theory.

Oneness does not need to be formulated since it a basically based on the simple principles of two scriptures: Deuteronomy 6:4 and 1 Timothy 3:16.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[1]
Or The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord alone
Deuteronomy 6:4

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

In Deut 6:4, all we are told is that the Lord is singular. At this point God has already appeared in many manifestations so they could have easily come to the conclusion that God exists distinctly as both a 1st and 2nd person. However, even with Genesis’ “Let us” verse the Israelites came to no such conclusion.

In 1 Tim 3:16, Paul explains to us that try as we might to understand how God does what he does we will fail for this mystery cannot be explained.

Simplicity is the key. The moment we try to develop any explanation of how God does what he does we are at a complete loss. Thus we find human ways in which to explain something we cannot.

Whenever we have to “infer” or “develop” any theory or piece together the word in order to make the idea of it coherent. The basis is simply “God is one”. It is not for us to understand how he could robe himself in flesh, speak through a dove or donkey, or even “inhabit” our hearts. At those questions lie mysteries to which we have no words to even formulate a description.

Trinity, on the other hands, requires us to infer, to develop, to constrain Biblical words in order explain that which we cannot explain. We stand up and applaud ourselves for our ingenuity: “Ah, God, we have figured you out. Now we understand that which was hidden from us. Now we are like you!”

It is with that arrogance we can see what lies at the very heart of Trinity – it is the same used by that Great Serpent and it is with that revelation that we see that the Trinity is a lie. We tell ourselves that we have figured it out when we have done no such thing.

Therefore, the Trinity is Man’s attempt to answer the unanswerable. It is an idea that Man has created and unlike God we cannot say “it is good”.

Falling Short

October 23, 2007

Tim says:

“Scripture clearly teaches progressive knowledge starting in the OT, becoming fuller in the NT (as such as Christ proved by his earthly teachings) concerning the things of God, not limited to the doctrine of the Trinity.”

Since the Trinity is a doctrine of man and not anywhere in the Bible, then we can clearly make an argument against it without even resorting to the Bible. It is a doctrine based on philosophy, not scripture.

However, the Trinity implies that God has given us full knowledge of Himself (since God can be no more and no fewer than 3 persons), but you also disagree with Trinity when you wrote “becoming fuller in the NT”. If it is “becoming fuller”, then it is incomplete. Therefore, we cannot claim to know whether God has revealed himself totally to us. Because, as you clearly admit, He has not.

The Trinity claims certainty where none exists. Just like evolution…

The Trinity doctrine: God is 3 in one. He is 3 distinct persons and no more. That God is 3 persons in one is a set law. God cannot be more persons and neither can he be less. Therefore, the Trinity doctrine is either badly flawed or totally incorrect.

For instance, we are never actually told what God is one of.

If he is human, in what way. We think of God in our own terms using our own definitions. We were created in the image of God, but an image does not reflect the complexity of the original.

In other words, someone can look at picture of me, but without knowing human biology, genetic sequences, brain functions, and all the rest that there is to know we are left with nothing but an image which tells us nothing more than what we can see from the outside.

Compound that with the fact that we are not even seeing a complete picture and we have even less.

In my case, if the picture only shows me from the front, then what does my back look like? Do I have a second or third hole back there? What if the picture is only me from the waist up?

Why can’t God be four persons much less two or one? Do we really believe that God has revealed Himself fully to us? No, all we can see is what has been revealed.

We have an incomplete picture of God and yet we attempt to paint one of completeness. We assume that God exists in the way we understand Him to exist.

In our arrogance we have claimed to figure out God when the only thing we can truly say without presuming to know more than we know is that God is one. Anything else is speculation and hubris.

This should be obvious and indeed it was. However, as philosophers and their philosophies entered the church they had to make some attempt at explaining everything. Eventually, their theories became doctrine.

By turning theory into fact, Trinitarians have done the same thing as Evolutionists.